MAJOR LOSS OF POWER

[MARTI]

Hello

This is my first time on this forum.
I have an Ultima Edition 2003 Mexican Beetle, in Scotland UK.
The car has approx 11000Km on the clock.

Recently I have developed a problem with loss of power, after about 10 miles (when car has heated-up), at speed on the motorway / freeway, it will suddenly start to splutter & loose power, to point where it will go no further - I have to stop & let it cool down.

After about 5-10 minutes, I can drive off again, with enough power to get it back home - if I were to let it cool-down completly, I think it would perform as normal, since there is no problem when started from cold & travelling several miles at higher speeds - then this problem kicks-in.

I have no idea what the problem can be - I suspected possible problem with fuel - tried adding cleaner to fuel, but this did not help.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions to what the problem may be.

Please note, I'm not so knowledgeable when it comes to car mechanics (but the garage I took the car, were not so sure about the problem either & will have to seek advice before trying to work on it).

I don't have access to VAG-COM (and neither did the garage). I'm thinking it might be wise for me to invest in a kit for this car - garages over here have little experience with the late Mexican Beetles.

How much would a kit cost from Manfred?

As far as my loss of power problem is concerned, I don't know if this would even register a fault?

Again, I'd be grateful for possible suggestions as to possible causes for this problem.

Regards
MARTI

[Red1600i]

This could be a defect of the ignition. The transformer coil or the hall sensor in the distributor.

Test it: let it run and spray water on it. If it stops you know what it is.

Most of them ist the transformer. It's compatible with Golf 2 and Passat.

Or new:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ZUNDSPULE-ZUNDMODUL-3p-VW-GOLF-3-POLO-6N-86C-PASSAT-35i_W0QQitemZ110413581228QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r?hash=item19b5298bac

[MARTI]

RED 1600I

Many thanks for reply.
I will certainly look into this.
I hate to sound completly stupid, but I'm still not sure how you test the transformer with water?

The garage I went to, suggested that the valves may need adjusted - but I'd like to explore all other possibilities, before anyone starts taking the engine apart - as it has been untouched since it left the factory & only has a low milage - I'd like to avoid breaking it open & replacing gaskets etc. - unless it is unavoidable.

Your suggestion about the transformer is well worth trying, since it is low cost (thanks for link) - if it's not this, then a spare will do no harm.

A spare distributor would also do no harm (if it turns out not to be faulty) - can you suggest best replacement?

Again - many thanks for reply & will let you know how I get on (once I've located the parts).

Regards
MARTI

[phade]

Hi Marti,

I think the garage is wrong about adjusting the valves. They must never be re-adjusted unless they have been "adjusted" before. If the hydraulic tappets are rattling for any reason then the best thing to do is the following:-

- Drive the car !! If it hasn't been driven for a few days then the oil will eventually seep out of the hydraulic tappets and driving it for about 15 minutes should shut them up.

- Check the oil level. This should be near or at maximum, but do not overfill it !!

- If the above hasn't stopped the rattling then there may be sludge within the engine oil. The simple cure for that is to add Molyslip to the engine oil 200 miles (300 km) before it's next oil change. Flush out the engine oil at it's next oil change and fill it with 15W40 mineral oil as normal.

- Finally, if all of the above has failed to stop the rattling then the crankcase may have to be split to replace the hydraulic tappet's seals and bleed them.


Anyway, back to the actual problem. I think that actual problem with the car is that it's gone into limp home mode, which can be caused by any of the following problems:-

- Hall sender defective or intermittant
- Engine oil temperature sender resistance incorrect or it's connector intermittant


I would recommend that you check the engine oil temperature sender first and then check the hall sender if the engine oil temperature sender was ok.


Engine oil temperature sender:-
-------------------------------------


An easy way to check the engine oil temperature sender, which is the following:-

- When the engine is stone cold, measure the resistance of both the air temperature sender and the oil temperature sender with a multimeter. The resistances of both of them must be approximately the same as each other.

- Now have a look at the general condition of the engine oil temperature sender's socket. If it looks broken or is loose (eg. falling to bits) then it must be replaced.

- The third check is done as follows:-

- - Remove the engine oil temperature sender from the left hand cylinder head (next to number 4 HT lead)

- - Let it warm up to room temperature (20˚C) and measure it's resistance. The resistance must be approximately 900 Ohms.

For completeness, the graphs for both the engine oil temperature and air temperature sender resistances are shown in the graphs below. The resistances are the same for both of them:-




Hall sender:-
---------------

There are two ways of testing the hall sender. The first method is as follows:-

- Remove the hall sender plug (ignition switched on) and measure the voltage between pins 1 and 2. That voltage must be at least 10 Volts. Switch off the ignition.

- Refit the connector back onto the hall sender and switch the ignition back on. Use a spanner to turn the crankshaft pulley by hand for two complete revolutions. You should hear a click on every 1/2 turn of the crankshaft pulley (1/4 turn on the distributor). If it has clicked four times then the hall sender is probably OK.


The second method of testing the hall sender is as follows:-

- Start up the engine and let it warm up to operating temperature (oil temperature 80˚C minimum).

- Use a pair of pliers and wiggle the hall sender's socket (on the distributor its self). Make sure that the pliers do not touch the metal contacts within that socket. If the engine then stumbles or stalls when you wiggle the hall sender socket then the hall sender its self is intermittant.

Replacing the hall sender can either be done with either of the two following methods:-

- Fitting a replacement distributor. They are available from the following sources (Manfred and other people on here may know of other sources as well):-

- - Manfred Graf ( http://www.1600i.de/ email: info@1600i.de )

- - Antonio Trejo ( email: partsvw@hotmail.com )

- - VW Classic Parts Center ( http://www.vw-classicparts.de )

- - Gebrüder Behling ( http://www.gebrueder-behling.de/ ). Check to see what payments they will accept (Ralf may accept Paypal, but ask him first !!)


Note:- The correct Bosch distributor must be fitted and pattern part distributors for the 1600i mexican beetle are not available.

- Fitting a replacement hall sender. This requires the circlip to be removed from the bottom of the distributor. The distributor's shaft (along with the metal disc) can then be removed from the distributor its self.


Also, for further information there's the 1600i website http://www.1600i.de/ where I have contributed to a fair amount of the english documentation.

Let me know how you get on.

Cheers,

Phil

[MARTI]

THANKS PHADE

I'll let you know how I get on, once I get sorted with spares.

Regards
Marti

[MARTI]

PHADE

I took car to a Bosch Approved Diagnostics garage - they say they traced fault to coil pack & rotor arm but that a new distributor hall sensor may be required also.

I've had to order all these parts from Antonio (expensive). and will just find the faulty component by trial & error. The hall sensor is not available separately, so I've also ordered complete Distributor.

I'll let you know how I get on - but may be several weeks before I try to fit them.

Regards
MARTI

[phade]

I think a faulty hall sender and/or faulty oil temperature sender is the most likely cause.

The ignition coil is available from GSF (eg. mk3 Polo petrol except G40) and all of the other usual suspects.

[MARTI]

PHADE

I've also ordered the oil temperature sensor as you suggested.

Am I right, that the hall sensor is only available with the complete Bosch Mexican distributor? Or are these also available as spares to fit this type?

Regards
MARTI

[phade]

Hi Marti,

You can get the hall sender separately from Manfred on his website ( http://www.1600i.de ), but it would require the distributor shaft to be removed from the distributor. This can be done by removing the circlip (but don't lose it !) at the bottom of the distributor's shaft and widthdraw it upwards. The hall sender should then be accessible.

Cheers,

Phil

[MARTI]

PHAD

Just to keep you informed, I still haven't manged to get it working yet.
It is now not possible to use the car as it stalls after about 5 mins of idling.
The oil temperature sensor I ordered from Antonio, is not the right one for this car (one he sent is for a single plug - along with a distributor cap cracked in transit).
The sensor in the car has a twin socket & looks identical to the one in Manfred's parts list.
To be honest, it looks ok, but I will replace it once I obtain another one.
The plug also looks ok, but having a spare might be an idea - not sure where you get them - perhaps this is a common type?

Do you have any recommendations with regard to HT leads & plugs? I.E. type to use.

Again thanks for your replies, and I will keep you informed of my progress (or lack of).

Regards
MARTI

[phade]

Spark plugs and HT leads would not cause that problem unless it's badly made Bosch HT leads (rubbish carbon resistor spark plug connectors). The original Beru HT leads should be fine.

If the oil temperature sender's socket looks ok (eg. it's not loose nor broken), then two guesses I would have are either the hall sender is intermittently faulty or relay 30 has got dried solder joints.

The first thing to do is to remove relay 30 (most likely) and have a look at it's solder joints. If they look suspect then resolder them. Also check the condition of the contacts within the relay.

If repairing/replacing relay 30 didn't fix the problem, then try wiggling the hall sender's connector carefully with a pair of pliers (make sure that they don't short out the hall sender connector's pins !!) and see if the engine stumbles or stalls. If the stumbles or stalls then the hall sender is faulty and the only cure for that is to replace the distributor.

I had fixed a VZi user's (VZi username Seeking_Mexibug) beetle last Friday when it's running problems (eg. very hot cat convertor and the car running very badly once it had warmed up) turned out to be the following:-

- Relay 30 - dried solder joints. The ECU's voltage was all over the place (bouncing up and down from about 3V to about 10V)
- Ignition timing 10˚ too retarded (probably caused by relay 30's dried solder joints)

[MARTI]

THANKS FOR REPLY PHADE

I did see your post on the other board (I've not registered yet). Some of the problems you described could be considered at least similar.
The relay 30 is well worth a try (and relatively cheap & easy to replace), so I will check this first. The hall sensor is much more difficult for me - tried as you suggest, wiggle the plug - no problems. This does not mean it's not faulty though? I purchased a complete distributor from Antonio - but I'am neither qualified or tooled with Vag Com & Diagnostic plug to fit this - so it's a last resort to take the distributor out. I've tried to contact Manfred for a replacement Hall sensor only, but he does not seem to reply - perhaps he is just too busy?
I think you posted a cross reference for relay 30, so I could get one from say GSF if I needed it?
I mentioned the HT leads, as they were suggested as a possible by AA when I broke down couple of weeks ago & couldn't restart.
The leads & plugs (which I think are ok), are service items, & I suspect these will be original - so I should have spares anyway.

Again thanks and I'll keep you posted, as this has been going too long now.

Regards
MARTI

[MARTI]

PHADE

I've had a look at relay 30 solder joints as suggested, but to be honest, I think they look ok. Milage on this car is also very low (about 11000km).
If you remove it, and let it cool, replace relay, it will still only start once the engine bay is completly cold.
However, I've ordered replacement relay, just to be sure.

Question: as mentioned above, I have a complete new distributor, do you think it would be too risky for me to try & replace complete unit, try to align in same position old one was fitted - if this works - then take to Bosch diagnostics centre and let them adjust the timing as required?
I can't drive this car anywhere now, as it now cuts-out after short period of idling - i.e. the problem has got progressively worse (used to be able to use short distance).

I'll let you know how the new relay goes, but don't hold your breath.

Regards
MARTI

[phade]

The Bosch diagnostics centre will not be able to help you since it's a Digifant (eg. VW's own) ECU, which requires a laptop running VAGCOM or a VAG 1551, VAG 1552, VAS 5051, VAS 5052 or VAS 5053 with the correct lead.

You can make up your own OBD II socket to 3 pin adaptor lead by following the wiring documentation I had written for the 1600i website (http://www.1600i.de). The OBD II socket is available from S K Pang Electronics or from your local VAG dealer and for the three pin plug, have a look at this VZi thread http://www.volkszone.co.uk/VZi/showpost.php?p=6896918&postcount=14

[MARTI]

PHADE

I take on board what you say about the Bosch centre - I'm begining to doubt they were able to test the car at all - otherwise they would have been more specific about what the fault was when I took it in last year.

To be honest, I'm getting tired of being fleeced on this car - so far I'm out £1200 on this fault alone & still no prospect of fixing it. If I can't fix before the tax, insurance & MOT due, I will have to cut my losses - I just can't afford this level of expenditure on a car with less than 8000 miles on the clock.

I tried the new relay 30 but no joy (still worth eliminating for sure though).
I didn't think I would be up to the home-made cable you suggested - so took the easy option of ordering the Interface cable, adaptor cable & software @ £200. Still no joy there either, as I simply get message "Interface not found" when all plugged-in & ignition switched on. The interface cable is labeled "VAG COM CAN BUS". I've no idea if this is the correct plug for this car - do you know?

Assuming I get software that works, I will need a timing gun - can you recommend best type to get, as I will have to purchase one of these to replace the distributor.

Again, many thanks for your help & suggestions.

Regards
MARTI